The Definition of Insanity is, perhaps, using that quote.

I don't think the intention is to completely define the very broad term insanity. It's a cliche, and like all cliches may not make complete literal sense, but offers sound advice that applies in multiple situations.

If anything, pick on the cliche "Shoot for the moon, if you fail at least you'll land among the stars", as moons are much closer to us than even our closest star the sun, and if you did land among the stars or even in space at all, you'd be dead. Not a very good place to shoot for. But you do get the point, set higher goals than you think are possible. And you get the point of the first cliche too...if you want something different, do something different. If a door is locked and you want it open, dont just keep trying to turn the knob the same way. Turn it harder, get a key, get a pick, break the fucker down, etc.

Define "sanity."

Fat,

You think you are very clever, denying or arguing the exactitude of a genius philosopher; be it Einstein, Franklin, Twain or anybody.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get a different result..."

Hmmm, do you really need that to be said differently? It is science and the laws of physics, think what you want, but whoever conceived this thought was "ages" beyond your level of intelligence.

"Course when I do, it will instantly disprove the saying."

I wish I'd read that line before I got heated over your nonsense.

I realize that "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" is not an accurate definition, but the quote came to mind while working on a project. I was attempting to tackle a problem and was unsuccessful. After each failed attempt I tried again from almost the same angle with similar results. It was not too long before the hidden caveman inside came out wanting to start smashing things. Once I reached maximum frustration, the quote popped into my head so it definitely makes sense to me.

I realize that "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" is not an accurate definition, but the quote came to mind while working on a project. I was attempting to tackle a problem and was unsuccessful. After each failed attempt I tried again from almost the same angle with similar results. It was not too long before the hidden caveman inside came out wanting to start smashing things. Once I reached maximum frustration, the quote popped into my head so it definitely makes sense to me.

LOL! Sorry, I didn't realize I was getting comments on this post. Somehow, switching to checking my messages from a Blackberry caused your post to surface from behind some filters or other--and I see that people have been arguing with me and each other and I wasn't even there!!!!!!

It's funny you'd pick today to post what you did.

Last night I posted this to my personal MySpace blog:

( http://tinyurl.com/5znojl )

If you have a thought that comforts you beyond all reason, that makes you feel warm and round and golden, nurture it, no matter how dumb it may seem. It may not be literally true, as you currently understand truth. But it is real and it is true, at least symbolically, and maybe in other ways that our little bunny brains can't yet explain. Nurture it because when you believe in something and are comforted, there is real, True comfort, regardless of the scientific repeatability of the comforting situation.

Kinda cool, huh? On one hand, it encourages believing in that saying, and then on the other hand, you realize that by encouraging you to go ahead and keep believing in things, even if they aren't scientifically "sane," it denies the importance of the saying.

I like contradictions.

Hey, acatsrain, if a saying works for you, you know enough to go ahead and live by it. You don't need me to agree with you on Teh Internetz! I'm waaaay not that important.

Love ya
FAT

Okay, what about this?
It’s been almost three years now since you posted this theory here. Numerous people have tried dissuading you from your opinion. They haven't.
It seems utterly pointless, in my opinion, to try and change your view on this quote. If that’s how you feel... and over the course of three years your conclusion is still the same (for whatever your reasons) then that’s the way you want it to be.
Why try and change your mind when over thirty people have tried doing the same exact thing, just in different words, and still received your unyielding outlook on it?
It would be insane to even see a point anymore.
Better…

What is there to think about and or disagree with? This is a brilliant expression regardless of origin which is precisely why you find intelligent people using it with some frequency.

As others have noted, doing something over and over again in precisely the same manner will produce the same results (unless the system is truly chaotic). To expect otherwise is insane (again unless the system is chaotic). In my own field, I see people attempt to solve the same problem with the same ineffective methods hoping that they will "finally get it right" rather than choosing an unconventional solution which addresses the root cause of the problem.

This is great. This catchy non-definition didn't bother me too much until a timeshare salesperson quoted it to me. She was basically telling me that i was insane if I didn't buy the timeshare. Geez, thats when I wanted to tell her to check Websters for the true definition.

When a comedian quotes this saying its funny. When somebody quotes it to tell you that you are foolish, its offensive and they are wrong...how about that.

-J

This is great. This catchy non-definition didn't bother me too much until a timeshare salesperson quoted it to me. She was basically telling me that i was insane if I didn't buy the timeshare. Geez, thats when I wanted to tell her to check Websters for the true definition.

When a comedian quotes this saying its funny. When somebody quotes it to tell you that you are foolish, its offensive and they are wrong...how about that.

-J

An alligator is a reptile, but a reptile is not an alligator.

My question: what do you keep doing over and over that your smart friends keep saying this to you?

Regardless of the saying's merits in other fields, it applies beautifully to human relationships. Aimee Mann has a wonderful song based on the idea:

YOU DO

You stay the night at his house
With no ride to work
And Im the one who tells you
Hes another jerk
But youre the one who can succeed
Youve only got to prove your need--
And you do
You really do

The sex youre trading up for
What you hope is love
Is just another thing that
Hell be careless of
But though there are caveats galore
Youve only got to love him more--
And you do
You really do
Even when its all too clear

You write a little note that
You leave on the bed
And spend some time dissecting
Every word he said
And if he seemed a little strange
Well, baby--anyone can change
And you do
You do
You really do

I agree with Matt C.

I vote easy blog entry.

I accidentally stumbled upon this page from another search and it's amazing how much people can talk without saying anything.

Thanks for this post (now a year old almost exactly). I heard a talk radio person say this quote this morning and all I could think the rest of the way to work was "Since when did [insert stupid quote] become the definition of insanity????" I mean, huh? Wha'? It just does not compute.

Lol, seems silly that people have just thought this comment to death. I said this to my friend to convince him to change his life because he was stuck in a rut, doing the same thing everyday he has done for 15 years but expecting the outcome to be different.

This quote is a comment on the human mind and how it works. You touch a hot stove when your younger, you learn not to do that again...because it burned you. Most of us (including me) learned this at a young age even after my older sister said...don't touch...its hot.

If i repeatedly touched a hot stove...expecting everytime that i would not get burned....you would call me insane clearly. It goes against human nature to do the same thing over and over, but to expect the outcome to be different.

Relax, holmes. Ever heard of a little something called a 'figure of speech'? You must be a literary genius!

Of course, when one practices an instrument, they do obtain a different result. They will indeed get better. But they also practice with the intent of getting better; hence, they expect to get better with practice. You don't practice with the intent of getting anything but better, so you actually still do not expect a different result. Congratulations! You are not insane.

But what if one placed all their effort into their instrument, but had no clue what they would sound like? Sounding completely random everyday. One day like Mozart, and the next day, like a gorilla beating two branches together. Would that person's constant effort be classified as insanity, seeing as how they repeat the same task every day, without a discernable clue as to what to expect? With that being said, does that person even have the goal of getting better, or simply to exert a tremendous amount of effort into the action? If not, then wouldn't repeating a task that has no guarantee of a forward progression or a goal actually make you seem insane?

Or to put it bluntly: How many times can a person walk into the same wall, before someone realizes that they may not know they can’t walk through it?

This is intersting. It gives me good ideas for my speach about having a moment of insanity. :]

Hey Fat,
The link you gave does seem to delve further into the insight of the term but... and that's a very big but, although I too do not like the saying either, he explains that some actions have different variating results like fishing or hitting a baseball.

Shouldn't it be obvious that the person who came up with this term, is implying that the action being performed seems to have the similar or same result.

What I think the term is referring to is that fact that one of the definitions is "Foolish" or "to be foolish" and expecting different results from the same action is foolish or the act of a foolish person.

My 2 cents,
Dan

Wait, oh, dude, this is good.

"You do not handle Wisdom. Wisdom handles You."

Well of course we can't handle Wisdom. It's like the shark in Jaws...you never see it until it has eaten you. I suppose one could learn to recognize the music.

Although this is not the dictionary definition, it still makes perfect sense and it's one of my favorites too. I think the real issue is that so many people can't handle wisdom and the truth hurts.

I like this quote very much; it's one of my favorites. How many times have you met people whose life is in a shambles and no matter how much advice others give them, they keep doing the same thing hoping for different results. For example, a woman keeps falling for the same type of man who cannot be faithful hoping that this one will be different, but he's not. And why is that? Because ordinarily, when you turn on the kitchen faucet, it produces a stream of water. If you expect that each time you do, it will instead produce lemonade or maybe oil, well, you're nuts. It's supposed to apply to the practical, not practicing piano or self improvement techniques that over time improve whatever it is you're trying to improve. But even then, as someone else pointed out, if you only play Chopsticks over and over, you will not one day suddenly play Rachmaninoff.

OK Great...all the posts are interesting...but does anyone know where the statement comes from?

If you are practicing the piano every day, I hope you are playing different pieces, and as you improve, more complex compositions. Playing Chopsticks again and again will not improve your skill.

You are right. That is one silly statement.

If I practice the piano everyday, of course I will get different results! I will keep getting better and better.

Its time to put this silly motto or proverb to rest. Let that guy on those infomercials who looks like Lurch from the Adams Family know to stop saying such nonsense.

I realize the posts I'm responding to are a bit old but...

It's worth noting that experimentation is not done to search for any particular outcome. True, scientists tend to hypothesize before doing an experiment, but this is to guide them in making sure they are only testing for one variable. Or, if they must test for multiple variables, have enough controls to narrow down exact causes for each variable.

My point being, science is used to describe what is observed in nature. But as a rule of thumb science tends to be purely theoretical. We take gravity for granted but on a molecular level the theory of gravity proves to be invalid.

Science is used to describe what happens in nature. But since how things work aren't known in advance (or for sure, in most cases) it's impossible to say that expecting different results from the same experiment is insane. Rather, it's a good way to make sure your hypothesis really is what's going on (or not going on).

Rather, a scientists who DIDN'T expect to get different results (and thus never tried) would be insane.

how do you define insanity?
doing the same thing day in and day out and expecting change.

There's a person who lost his watch at night.
He stands under the street light looking for his watch.
Looking. Looking. Looking.
By standard walks by and helps the person look for his watch.
After an hour, by standard asks the person, "Are you sure that you lost your watch here?"
The person says, " Oh!! No, I lost my watch down the street.
But the light is better here."

What is that Determination?

Main Entry: in·san·i·ty
Pronunciation: in-'sa-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)
2 : such unsoundness of mind or lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law to enter into a particular relationship, status, or transaction or as removes one from criminal or civil responsibility
3 a : extreme folly or unreasonableness b : something utterly foolish or unreasonable

I think it's a great saying. Here is an analogy: If you have trouble finding the right person but keep dating the same type of person, you are insane. Thinking that you will get a different result each time you go on a date with the same type of person is insane ( or at least very stupid).

i loved a boy and went out with him and he cheated on me... this happened multiple times for a year, i asked my mother if she thought i should give it another shot.. and she asked me if i knew the definition of insanity..

It applies to doing something within exact perameters again and again and expecting something different.
simple baseball example: I keep swinging high over low pitches...every time and I get angry that I can't hit it. Maybe I should try swinging lower.

That's good insight, Bruce.

Thanks for rising above the nit-picking, and for finding a spin on this thread that might give us the tools to help somebody with their suffering. Fat tips his Hat.

I've heard the saying used successfully in marriage counceling. The idea is that one tries, over and over, to change their spouse using the same technique that has failed repeatedly.

It is a rejection of reality, thus insane. The reality is that you cannot change another person. Secondary reality is that the poor relational technique is still poor, no matter how many times you try it.

Einstein defined insanity, not Franklin.

Pete's point is fairly clinical & correct. Here's another view. This point has more to do with saying the same thing and looking for different results. This is written by a former Bostonian who's now lived in Hong Kong for many years and had fairly extensive travel experience throughout Asia with many cultures & peoples.
Years ago I had to take a full day of complete psychological tests to qualify for a position with a Boston firm. (required of all employees hired to deal directly with clients) The testing included what is called the Multi-Phasic examination. Pages of multiple choice questions, many questions repeated throughout the test. (answering the same question differently several times in a single test could indicate you are one wave short of a shipwreck.) I was hired by the Boston firm and it was a good posting for years.
However, asking the same question several times is obviously what the Pro's do to sort the good, bad and ugly.
Over the years I've found myself using this method with people I don't know well. (for the same reason as the Pro's)
It really is a jungle out there, better to sort out a stranger quickly to avoid things turning ugly. Pete's comment about alcoholics repeating behavior; mostly true, but partially false. If you have not spent time partying like a rock start in the Wan Chai district of Hong Kong, it is an experience I would strongly recommend to anyone. Some people drink repeatedly because they are surrounded by super hot, wild Asian chicks that do anything and everything all the time. Any more fun & it would be a major sin.

Of course the definition of insanity is not encompassed by this saying. You are probably right that this quote cannot be attributed to Einstein, Franklin ... but it is not so far from the cynical wit of Mark Twain and if anyone could have been the originator of this colloquialism it is more likely Twain than the others.
No matter the origin of this saying it is not too far off the mark. If one knows anything about certain types of mental illness such as personality disorders the hall mark of this form of mental illness is a narrowly rigid personality. This means that the person inflicted cannot adapt to react differently in varying situations, most social. This rigidity in character results in very strained persona relationships.
In essence the rigidity of personality disorders amounts to doing the same thing over and over agiabn and expecting different results. The person inflicted with a personality disorder cannot comprehend why the world cannot understand him/her, hence shtting out relationships etc.

Alcoholism is an extreme form of of mental illness which also involves repeated dysfucntional/intoxicated behavior causing the inflicted individual trouble, social, legal etc. Yet the alcoholic repeats this behavior over and over agian hoping that things will change for them. So no matter what the origin may be, the saying does hold some merit of insight into human behavior and the failure of some to smoothly integrate into society. Only people who undertsand the nature of certian mental illnesses can truly apprciate the nature of this saying.

I'll buy into that.

Per my last post, the two things that have me really rolling my eyes are

1. It's unfounded attribution to Franklin or whoever, which leads to
2. Otherwise very intelligent people actually thinking that Franklin used this saying to define science.

The rest of it, the message about repetition...to that I can quite happily say "http://www.fatman.com/lunch/lunch_03b.html" and not worry too much about it.

Thanks for taking the time, y'all!

...And speaking of "thanks," I'm still giggling like a schoolgirl at all the ways a person could comment about this lovely fragment:

"stupidest is not an english word. you are insane for using it in a sentence."

If you do the same thing repetitively yet get different results, you're evidently overlooking a variable. Once the variables that influence the results have been controlled, the results should be consistent.

This is the essence of science. It supports the thought behind the saying, even if it doesn't define insanity and if Franklin wasn't the guy that said it.

i dont know who has something to say, but he's right too...

hmmm... you know what? i think youre right!

wow, i hope you find out what youre looking for

The saying is talking about mistakes. It might be better said this way "The defintion of insanity is doing the same (mistake) over and over again and expecting different results." In that way the quote is one of the best I have ever heard. It is dead on in that way. Listen to it you might learn something

stupidest is not an english word. you are insane for using it in a sentence.

Right On. The saying does not benefit by being associated with a scientist.

Step 1. Drop the "by-line." We don't know who said it, and it hides in a veil of seriousness any potential cleverness the saying might have.

Step 2. For pete's sake, wink slyly when you say it. Or at least tell it in a way that disarms that word "definition," because I've seen too many smart people think that it _is_ an actual definition.

I'd go with something like, "You know how they say you can tell if somebody's insane?"

Isn't that better?

It's attributibility to Einstein or Franklin or whoever is disputable. Regardless, the phrase is meant to help us realize that change is the path to growth; if we have obstacles in our lives that we cannot overcome, it is only because we have not attempted the method that works. In some cases people never try a different method and continue to fail not understanding why. Attributing the phrase to a brilliant inventor implies it is meant to be associated with experiments or inventing or other sciences, when in fact it is meerly analogous to these and applies to everyone and their individual peace of mind.

The notion of experimentation and practice is not to repeat and repeat over and over again the same thing. Quite the contrary, it to do controlled variations until you find what you are looking for. And the quote, no matter who said it, does not contradict that, it contradicts your idea of "experimenting".

You're certainly right. It was Albert Einstein who said it every bit as much as Ben Franklin.

As said here http://tinyurl.com/yx34bd

"I've heard this variously attributed as being from Albert Einstein, Sam Clements, Sigmund Freud, an "old saying," a Chinese saying, or even the actual accepted scientific definition of insanity."

As humor, or as a provocative argument-starter, I have no problem with this saying. However, when inaccurately coupled with a famous person's name, and when said in a "professorial tone," as it was said to me, I think it's got a problem. Johnny Smoke (below) has enough of a sense of humor to not get any of that on him, but the people I talked to actually thought that this _WAS_ the definition of insanity. So let's remember to use the word "attributed" and disarm this linguistic terrorist a little bit.

I think it was Albert Einstein who made the statement not Ben Franklin. =)
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26032.html

LOL!!!!

No tongue-in-cheek here, you're busting me up!!!!

I like this one:
"Dad used to always say, 'Whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger'...until The Accident."

Happy Election Day!!!! Don't get fooled again!!!!
:)

Hey Fat, I looked up the literal definition of idiot and here's what I came up with.

3 a : a silly simple person : SIMPLETON, BLOCKHEAD b : a person who fails to exhibit normal or usual sense, discrimination, or judgment especially at a particular time or in respect to a particular subject c : a professional fool : JESTER

Thank you for waking me up. Like most of us, I always take these idioms too literally and I apply them as if they're absolutes. For instance when my grandfather used to say there's more than one way to skin a cat, he wasn't suggesting I skin a real cat like I have been doing all these years. It was a figure of speech? And when my dad used to say, I'll be dipped in shit, he didn't actually mean that he'd prefer being dipped in poo? I always thought that was a little extreme.

I've been going about this all the wrong way. I should be voting for the exact same politician and the same issues and... eventually I'll get a different result. Ah... patience is a virtue. Thank you for the pearls of wisdom, they're as good as gold! You're obviously very philosophical; I can see you think very deeply. ;)

Oh, yeah, and of course there is some merit to trying different ways of doing things.

As a firm believer in "for every philosophy there is an equal and opposite philosophy," I do tend to give lots of slack to every kind of "-ism" that I hear--they all have some merit. Here's an article I wrote 20 years ago on that topic, which I call "rule of thumb wrestling:"

http://www.fatman.com/lunch/lunch_03b.html

However, the merit of that particular saying is cloaked more than most in imprecise language, inaccuracy, lack of humor, and a cute little fib at the end. So congratulations to you for finding that merit.

An excellent diatribe on this topic is here
http://morrisinstitute.com/weekly/mihv_pc_morris_71.html

and it ends with a very open-minded point of view:

"I remember the old quote from Mark Twain: 'If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. There's no sense being a damn fool about it.'
[snip]

"Every urban adage can serve us well if we use it as a focus for reflection. And that's true of the words of even the greatest philosophers. They're not always right. But they can be very helpful if we use their words to stimulate us to our own thoughts. A popular saying, whether new or old, should never substitute for thought. If it leads us to our own, more careful, thoughts, it has done us a good deed indeed.

"So my advice is: Do this with every new 'insight' or catchy 'definition' you hear. Turn it over in your own mind. Examine it for truth. Question what it means and how it can help you come to your own conclusions. Do this same thing over and over, and - guess what? - you can almost always expect a different result!

"Which is why being a philosopher is sometimes insanely interesting!"

There. Now wasn't it funnier the way I said it first?
:)

You have an excellent point. I shall adopt your logic.
--Fat

...and then his automatic quote generator said,

"A guy who signs his emails 'anonymous' _might_ be wearing underpants on his head."
--Albert Einstein

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/benjaminfr109067.html
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/columns/0001/346.htm

As is probably true with all sayings and cliches, they can easily be shown to be inaccurate. There is obviously some truth to this saying regardless of who gets credit for it. Also, obviously, it doesn't mean it's literally the definition and the only definition of insanity.

If you honestly can't see how this can apply in some circumstances, maybe that's another definition of insanity. Or maybe just fundamentalism with respect to the english language. Or maybe you're just hardheaded. Or maybe you just like to argue. Or maybe it was just an easy blog entry.

Whatever. You're wrong.