Game Design Think Tank: Project Horseshoe Attendee Suggestions?

A late update -- related news and thoughts here:
http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/02/gaming-platforms-zune-wii-nokia-xbox-ds-lite.html

Sorry. That's...

http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/2006/08/origin_of_the_ipodshall_we_hav_1.html

I have spun this thread off into a separate blog topic

http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/2006/08/origin_of_the_ipodshall_we_hav.html

Thanks! That wasn't me, although I am indeed quite capable of misspelling.

I kinda like an aspect of this "PC MUST DIE" thing. Really, there are things a PC is very good for, and some it's terrible at. (grammar, yes, I know) "robust game platform" is in the latter category.

People interested in "PC versus Appliance" arguments, especially as relates to audio, will find a treasure trove at our Project BBQ website.

Just go here and bang around for "appliance."

http://www.projectbarbq.com/bbqtopic.htm

You'll see that the topic was brought up elegantly in 1997 by Van Webster. Since then, the "church of appliantology" has created quite a stir among some very interesting people.

I will even go out on a limb here--_it can be argued_ that Van's talk in 1997 inspired the creation of iTunes and the iPod. Probably not entirely true, and takes credit from some who deserve it. But just for fun, here's how my warped mind remembers it:

-Van gives talk at BBQ
-Jim Reekes, then at Apple, is very inspired. He responds by "founding church of appliantology"
-Jim tries to talk his bosses into creating an appliance for music based on the internet. He writes some code to support the idea.
-The response is "what, are you crazy? Music on the Internet???" or something like that
-Jim creates Kerbango, a company based on an internet audio appliance
-That company ends, I don't know why.
-iPod/iTunes comes out
-it contains some of Jim's code.

I don't know if it's true, I'm just saying that if we were sitting around the campfire, that's the story I'd tell.

--FAT

Hmmzz.. The Fat Man suddenly forgot all about spelling and proper grammar?
And rags on 'liberals'?
Doesn't seem like an authentic post.

Reality check people, the PC video game industry is not dieing. The PC game industry is booming, duh. PC gamers are spoiled, but they earn being spoiled by working hard at there job earn upgrades. This web site must be libreal, since people here don't like people who work hard to buy there gaming rig.

Dear Teh Fat Man, glad you're asking -- there are way too many success stories about, let me offer some wisdom attained in 8 years of utter failure as a game developer, from one who never "made it".
[+3.5 years of added experience gained in the game localisation business -- it gave me another interesting POV at the industry]

Simon's opinion comes handy, I will briefly touch two of his points.

1st., a contradiction: An "oasis" is a sanctuary, a pleasant harbor to the struggling traveller for surviving the wasteland.
-What, anybody in their right mind considering the peecee an 'oasis' for videogames??
It is rather an unlimited growth medium that made it possible for the industry, once a virulent cell of innovation, to develop into a tyrannical monstrosity.

2nd., a confirmation: Browser games have indeed matured lately.
Simon is standing on firm ground with this one claim, there is an estabilished browser-based casual games market, and it is offering much more chance for the small guy/indie developer -- because there IS at least a slim chance at all for everyone, while in the big game industry there is none.

Now let me really address your questions -- my huge background of negative records (8 years of struggle culminating in a total of 1 contract for a single bloody advergame title + a widely unknown roleplaying adventure released in 2001 for an obsolete platform from 1982) may provide some novel reasoning for over-discussed old ideas:

Letting the peecee die as a gaming platform means people like you should stop your desperate efforts at producing those ambitious and enthusiasm-powered games for it that won't stand a chance of gaining financial profit, or acclaim from the peecee gamer population, either.
Once you and other itching devs who still don't get it (like me+team did for so many years) stop wasting ideas, effort and resources on the platform, you can take on something better, like making real money elsewhere, or even devving games for other platforms where your attitude might stand a chance for success. You folks still have not consider that for all those years maybe you were scratching it at the wrong place?
Imagine creating a browser-based or mobile phone game with the same zealotry, high aims and long standing game knowledge that you would pour into a peecee game that no publisher wants. Imagine investing the same money that you would need to burn on marketing and ads for your indie peecee product to get any publicity into advertising your browser-based or mobile phone game on major casual gaming sites and in select papermags. How much can the same money buy you here vs there?
Maybe all those hordes of game industry oldtimers who are b*ing about the state of the industry never really looked out of the box and considered those underpowered handheld devices and 'inefficient' browser-plugin VMs that still pack orders of magnitude more punch than the Home Computers they created their first successful game products on?
It took me the first 6 years of lack of success until I checked into it, but unfortunately all our late projects were built around uber visual detail (see http://cid.newcomer.hu -- yes, the graphician guy had a say in what projects to attempt next when our far more grandiose plans proved unmanageable). Our semi-completed game and other early prototype designs required larger displays than mobile phones have and more fill-rate than those browser plugin gfx APIs could provide. I was aiming at gameplay PLUS lotta gfx whizzbang with a team of just 4-5 devs, rather than build everything around the gameplay and invest our smaller resources into a smaller market. I was on the wrong platform, I failed. Other people who came from the same 'scene' as me found good bizz on the more small-guy-friendly smartphone/PDA market, but I did not get it at the time, I was stubborn about moving on to the peecee.

On your second question, as to what advice might I have for "people who develop games", let me interpret that definition as meaning small indie devteams, the classic closely-knit group of 3-8 dedicated people.
-Why limit the definition that way?
Not-so-indie means not-as-much developing games as just hammering out products.
Not-so-small indie team means more like an open source game with a loosely-knit and changing group of people commiting to the project, and open source devs did not deliver any significant amount of great games out of the myriad projects they are cultivating.

Three to eight people used to be more than plenty in the eighties for producing the "AA" and "AAA" equivalent titles of those days, and even in the early nineties there were several high-profile games created by teams sized like that.
But that was before "Production Value" (how much $$$$ was spent on CGI) and "Up-to-date features" (how good a techdemo your game is for pushing Hw sales) stole the show.

IF you are a small team you better target the "A" or "AA" level of one platform (remember, everything is relative) than the shareware level of another where "shareware" is interpreted as a pejorative+derogative term rather than THE estabilished game business model.

If you as a small devteam stop targetting the peecee game market, and turn your sights elsewhere, at last you _might_ stand some chance for success vs none.
Aim your sights at the evolving game content provider services for online consoles as well.

And yet, even heeding all the above still nothing is granted,
but for gossake AT LAST YOU GET A CHANCE!

I sincerely hope you have Greg Costikyan on board, although he's pretty busy right now.

PC games are a vital oasis of variety in computer gaming. The PC is the only mass market, non-proprietary platform for computer gaming. However for real creativity at the moment, browser based games (mainly Flash) are realy growing up.

At the current state of affairs, how would you recommend people develop their games?

I love it!

And certainly to the extent that what you are saying is true, the PC will die of its own accord at a rate proportional with its awfulness.

It seems to really surprise the cynics and hang in there, though, doesn't it? Maybe "minesweeper" is holding it up.

;)

Dear Fatman,

One solution to most of gaming's woes is, let the peecee die as a game platform.
I mean, IF you really got games in mind -- I would be hesitant to call most game industry products 'games' anymore.

You can't make peecee gamers your target audience IF you want to do anything else than what the peecee game industry does -- the gamers are _spoiled_ in the most pejorative sense of the word, they do expect all those wrong things that killed real videogaming.

You must look for another platform, and a fresh, unindoctrinated target audience, IF you want to try "something different". There are strong alternatives to peecee, and more is coming.

Remember, you might have grown to like the tool you are using for your craft, and it was the platform that launched 'gaming' into the forefront of electronic entertainment, at the same time it changed gaming and games for the worse -- so, let it go, let it go, let it go...